Teenage girl sentenced to death by beheading.

Is this just and equitable?

Only the regressive, delusional creed of Islam could or would call it justifiable.

Is this just and equitable?

Hi Jo, another fine seed huh? No not just, no not equitable.

bluearcher. Right behind you on this one.

Hello Love! This is why I hate organized religion of any kind! More barbaric acts are committed in the name of whatever God you believe in then just about anything else.

Only the regressive, delusional creed of Islam could or would call it justifiable.

I'm sure God would rather see her burned at the stake for her belief in transubstantiation.

Only the regressive, delusional creed of Islam could or would call it justifiable.

Actually, there are several issues at play here.

Was the trial just and subject to due process, by any reasonable standard? Absolutely not. However, that's an issue in multiple countries including China (officially secular).

In regards to the girl's age at the time of the crime, many countries still execute people who were a minor when the crime was committed, including the United States.

Since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976, 22 people have been executed for crimes committed under the age of 18. 21 were 17 at the time of the crime. The last person to be executed for a crime committed as a juvenile was Scott Hain April 3, 2003 in Oklahoma.^[99]

This situation is horrible, but it is not limited to any particular nation or religion. It is an issue that needs to be addressed around the world.

I must agree whole-heartedly with the Chief!

Organized religion (primarily the big-three monotheistic beliefs) are the fomentors of nearly all this world's hatred and conflicts. Every practitioner is required to hate the other two, and please don't patronize me with, "We are loving and peaceful people!" It's trite and grossly insulting! When I see what the nation of Islam does to their own, and their suicidal penchant to kill and maim all others, it makes me advocate turning the entire middle-east into a "Glass parking lot!!!"

Pot calling the kettle black.

The US executes more prisoners than Saudi Arabia, and it wasn't until 2005 that the US Supreme Court ruled against execution of minors. At the time of the ruling, Texas had 29 minor offenders on death row.

Hey Jo. It is barbaric IMO. Just home:)

Very good weekend. You can always tell it was good when you are tired and hungover when you get back:-) LOL

We need some of that over here to elevate our growing prison population....I always say, if there is no doubt, then get'r done! There is no reason Charles Manson should still be alive.

Only the regressive, delusional creed of Islam could or would call it justifiable.

It has nothing to do with the religion of Islam, but everything to do with the lack of human rights FOR WOMEN. The culture in this area of Saudi Arabia, puts women into a second class
citizen. It is time in some of these areas for women to have equal and civil rights. Western women can do that by supporting these causes for women in these area's where they still live by laws that are ancient and barbaric. I am a supporter of Amnesty International and am pleased with them taking up these causes. They are the entity that is instrumental in getting these cases out to the public and media, and in turn that has put a stop to some of these barbaric practices simply by World opinion and outrage.

She killed a baby. I have no sympathy for her.

Rizana, now 22, was arrested in May 2005 on charges of murdering an infant in her care.

death by beheading predates islam.

and nothing in this artcle says islam has anything to do with it.

and we kill people who kill all the time. we hand them until they break their neck, we put them in chairs and fire electricity through them until their blood boils, we shoot them, and we load them up with drugs.

But I'm supposed to blame islam for sentencing a murderer to death cause it is in saudia arabia.

boom muslims.... am i right?

as for international law, you do know texas recently broke it with two executions, they even executed a retarded man.

but yeah .. damn them funy looking brown muslims.

NOT A @!$%# THING IN THIS ARTICLE SAYS ISLAM HAS A GOD DAMN THING TO DO WITH HER CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR MURDER, BUT THAT DOESNT STOP THE BIGOTED RIGHT WINGERS FROM PRETENDING IT IS.. SOMEONE TELL ME HOW ISLAM GOT US TO HAVE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS WELL.. I DID NOT KNOW THEY HAD INFILTRATED TEH US SO COMPLETELY

What kind of false information are you giving out!!!! Look what the article says:

Rizana, now 22, was arrested in May 2005 on charges of murdering an infant in her care.

She's being executed, yes, but for a charge of murder, and is NOT a minor anymore!!!! Many similar cases have happened in the States AS WELL.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/juveniles-and-death-penalty

Hello Love! This is why I hate organized religion of any kind! More barbaric acts are committed in the name of whatever God you believe in then just about anything else.

Hear hear!

It has nothing to do with the religion of Islam, but everything to do with the lack of human rights FOR WOMEN. The culture in this area of Saudi Arabia, puts women into a second class
citizen. It is time in some of these areas for women to have equal and civil rights

We have our own problems with personal rights & barbaric acts endorsed by local authorities right here in America, most often linked to oppressive religious mumbo jumbo. We just don't see them as so terrible, because they are right under our noses and as such out of sight in plain view - as I imagine is the case with Islam & barbaric acts such as beheadings. I would go so far as to say that it's not about human rights FOR WOMAN, but human rights in general. Humans are placed a level below God in the minds of religious folk. If you are human, your rights are secondary to what the human mind interprets God's demands to be. The human mind being fallible, combined with the belief that one is 110% correct because they are in agreement with the ultimate creator of all things, is a recipe for disaster/terror/war/oppression & all things terrible about human behavior, with little chance for any self-realization or capacity for sympathy/empathy, because one has the incentive to ignore their human instincts of altruism, even if it feels wrong to do so - because they believe there's a 'higher' calling to continue causing harm to others if it's what God demands. There's more of a chance to win an argument with yourself than with your God. If you are causing harm to someone on your own accord, and want to stop - self control is your only obstacle to stopping, which is very feasible. If you are causing harm to someone because you believe your God demands it of you in order for you to enter the gates of heaven & to receive full salvation, it's much easier to ignore the feelings of compassion & empathy for another human being, after all - an authority greater than anything on this earth, including human beings, is demanding it of you. You have to be crazy to some degree to ignore basic human emotions such as compassion & empathy. Religion seems to allow perfectly sane people to over-ride their basic human emotions of empathy & compassion, wither in an Islamic country concerning Sharia, or here in America concerning Christianity, & even places such as Israel with Judaism --- Religion in general brings out the darker side of humanity.

This is a classic situation for an ex-President of the United States to embark on a diplomatic mission to try to obtain a pardon for this girl. I don't think you can find any ex-Presidents who have closer ties with the Saudis than Bush Sr. and/or Bush Jr. One of them needs to step up and tell our so-called "ally" that this shouldn't happen.

If she truly murdered a baby, I'd have to know the circumstances.

But it seems as if there could other circunstances that we are not privy to. Don't do it, not in this case.

While Islam alone isn't responsible for this latest outrage, it can't be removed from the discussion either, The fact is, women seem to suffer under the extremes of all religions, but suffer under most forms of Islam, especially if brutal Sharia Law principles are applied. I hope sanity prevails and she is granted a royal pardon, but if not, it won't be the first time a woman has suffered Sharia brutality in the Muslim world. Not saying she shouldn't be held responsible if she committed murder, but it seems as if there's reasonable doubt in this case, and because she's a woman, she isn't going to benefit from that doubt.

Many of the "Arab Spring" revolutionaries aspire to a similar form of "justice" for their home nations, so overthrowing the Saudi regime would have little positive effect for women in this complex country (a beautiful nation with many modern amenities but with caveman beliefs toward basic human rights, where "coming out of the closet" or simply speaking your mind can mean a trip to chopchop square).

We try/charge children as adults in our justice system all the time for crimes they commit as children. A child with a felony record is destined for not much of a better life than a non-life. The limitations on their ability to ever achieve full respect in society, will most likely prevent a child felon from ever living a real life. Is that really much better than simply taking the life of a child? Taking the life away in a heart beat, or making the child live a long life of alienation as a second class citizen (a living hell)? They both have awful similarities in my mind.

A child who commits a violent felony deserves to have a felony record, if for no other reason than as a historical record as his or her criminal career progresses. I can agree that in some cases where there has been a true change of heart in the child that committed the crime that the offense should be removed, but no way should it be automatic, especially if a brutal and/or sexual crime has been committed.

This statement does not apply to non-violent possession only type offenders, in their cases, I agree with you. No way should a crime that didn't involve violence haunt a child for the rest of his or her life.

While Islam alone isn't responsible for this latest outrage, it can't be removed from the discussion either, The fact is, women seem to suffer under the extremes of all religions, but suffer under most forms of Islam, especially if brutal Sharia Law principles are applied.

That's what we are often told by conservative media, but it isn't that black & white. Iraq for instance, in an Islamic region of the world, under Saddam had very good woman's rights - even better than here in the USA in many respects. Woman's rights and Islam managed to co-exist just fine. The majority of people were just fine with it. It wasn't until after we invaded and destroyed Iraq that, in the confusion of the aftermath, local powerful tribal leaders who espouse strict Sharia law have been allowed by us to take over (with our consent and support) with full force, regardless of what the masses want. Under Saddam, woman were equally represented in the Gov, they wore what they wanted, could divorce, used civil courts instead of sharia law courts, woman even had a year off for maternity leave & public day care centers for their children. While there are many things wrong with Islamic law, especially Sharia law, there are also many things wrong with American law - because one has different wrongs than the other, it makes it easier to be so appalled by one while condoning almost all of the other. And at least with Iraq, our fight against Islam resulted in an even more Islamic country, greatly intertwined now in Sharia law, of which before it was not.

Sorry, but paranoid Saddam would randomly pull people off the street and execute them, so you won't win an anti-Iraq war argument on the merits of his Woman's Rights record (I opposed the Iraq military action because it removed our focus from the justified a$$ whooping we laid on al-Qaida and the Taliban and I didn't consider Saddam a dire threat, although he was justifiably a wild card).

I think I need to clarify my original post (#1.21) in that my problem with this case is much more from the lack of access to a proper legal defense for this woman than the fact she's going to be executed. If she murdered this child and was given the chance to mount a competent legal defense to establish reasonable doubt, it's not near the same injustice(that her head will be on the chopping block) as this (that she was denied her basic human right to legal counsel in a criminal matter).

Naughtia #1.16: Of ALL the Muslim nations i.e. Theocracies, Saudi Arabia is THE most repressive to women by far, even worse than Iran. Saudi Arabia is home to Mecca, the most religious place in their religion. They have chosen to practice the sect of Wahhabism, named for a 17th. century Imam of theirs.

I listen to those who have lived under it as to what it is like for women. Two very fine books come to mind immediately. One was written by the wife of one of Osama's 1/2 brothers & the other was written by Osama's son, Omar, who took his much beloved mother & left the "cult" of Wahhabism. Both books are available in your library. Read what it is like to actually LIVE the life & be most grateful we live in freedom. BTW, the term, "Islam" translates into "Submission."

1. "Inside the Kingdom" by Carmen Bin Laden

2. "Growing Up bin Laden" @ Omar bin Laden & his mother, Najwa bin Laden with Jean Sasson.

Sorry, but paranoid Saddam would randomly pull people off the street and execute them, so you won't win an anti-Iraq war argument on the merits of his Woman's Rights record (I opposed the Iraq military action because it removed our focus from the justified a$$ whooping we laid on al-Qaida and the Taliban and I didn't consider Saddam a dire threat, although he was justifiably a wild card).

True, Saddam terrorized his population in many respects. Just saying that we do too, from the locallevel, to the state level, all the way to the Federal level - yes in most cases it's a more "gentle" terrorizing of the populace than outright execution, more likely in the form of taking away someones freedoms such as the right to vote or the ability to get a job (that is if they ever manage to get out of jail) by selectively using laws, often desigend to target minority groups, to create a class of second class citizens.

Our war on extreme Islam only established extreme Islam in Iraq, with our full continuing support, it's as if we not only condone Sharia law - but we want it there, at least that's what our actions say about our motives. And I wasn't making an anti-Iraq war statement (though it makes a good one), I was/am pointing out the fact that woman are not the enemy of Islam as many would have us believe. Islam is just foreign to us, & therefor easier to vilify, while not even seeing our own institutionalized religious (& non-religious) acts of oppression against woman. Extreme Islam & Sharia law are something to actually fear and work against in my mind, just as with any extreme religious POV, such as the Christian right & their current attempts to control our Gov. Also, we here in America have absolutely terrible statistics concerning spousal abuse, sex trafficking of woman & children, sex bias in the workplace, in Government positions (we have are very disproportionate as to the number of woman in office compared to the percentage of woman in the population). We have States where Doctors who treat woman's reproductive needs must be secretly flown in on a regular basis because it's too dangerous for them to live in the area they are serving due to very real religiously based threats to their lives. It goes on & on. Even internationally with religious republicans working with other countries to foster anti-gay laws which include the death sentence for being gay if you aren't lucky enough to get life in prison for it. While I am appalled at what happens to woman according to extreme Islamic traditions, I am well aware that our own Christian based gov has many of it's own serious problems with respecting the rights of everybody, and especially the rights of woman. We have even had a black President now, while having never had a woman President.

A child who commits a violent felony deserves to have a felony record, if for no other reason than as a historical record as his or her criminal career progresses. I can agree that in some cases where there has been a true change of heart in the child that committed the crime that the offense should be removed, but no way should it be automatic, especially if a brutal and/or sexual crime has been committed.

This statement does not apply to non-violent possession only type offenders, in their cases, I agree with you. No way should a crime that didn't involve violence haunt a child for the rest of his or her life.

There are/were a few examples rattling around in the back of my mind, but the one that was foremost in my thoughts is how we are charging teens who are caught sexting lewd pics of themselves to their boyfriends or girlfriends with child porn charges, putting them on sexual offender list along with adult rapist. Secondly, was an example like Texas where something as small & common as a gram of marijuana has the potential to ruin somebodies life & to take away their right to vote - one of the most basic rights we have, not to mention the loss of freedom by being put behind bars. Also, there's cases like this http://www.channel3000.com/news/22785849/detail.html where clearly the harm was caused by a lack of proper supervision & childish (non-adult) thinking lacking any ill will. Even in some violent murder cases, when a very young child is involved such as a 13 or 14yr old - I do question judging them as adults with fully mature brains which are able to make logical decisions. A 13 or 14yr old simply is different than a 17 or 18yr old in terms of thinking capacity & freedom of movement/thought & independance.

I will agree that sexting should represent a different type of offense than sexual assault.

/shrug

Don't be a baby killer in Saudi Arabia and they won't chop your head off.

It's what the Koran preaches... for all good muslims to follow the Koran and Sharia.. and Saudi Arabia is the model country for what the Koran preaches and how Islamic society should be. It's also home to Mecca, etc, etc. Why is anyone surprised by this? This is simply there religion and there values. The "religion of peace" is anything but, that's the irony of it.

Here are 3 Things About Islam you probably didn't know explained. Short concise video.

Being barbaric and backwards is a given.

She killed a baby. I have no sympathy for her.

I agree with LSS here.
100%

Only the regressive, delusional creed of Islam could or would call it justifiable.

And what do you think of those parts of America that would charge women with murder for still births, miscarriages? That's the American fundamentalist Christian Taliban.

This is simply there religion and there values.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this.

TheNavyChief--

Hello Love! This is why I hate organized religion of any kind! More barbaric acts are committed in the name of whatever God you believe in then just about anything else.

Back up a minute. We execute in this country NOT in the name of religion, but in the name of the law.

Why are you attacking Saudi Arabia for their executions which are part of their country laws? Instead you are using the "veil" of religion to them just attack all religion.

Countries have their own laws. We might not agree with them, but we do execute in the United States, just like the execute in Saudi Arabia, so it would be best to can the attack religion parade.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this.

If you've read the koran you wouldn't be. ;)

Even internationally with religious republicans working with other countries to foster anti-gay laws which include the death sentence for being gay if you aren't lucky enough to get life in prison for it.

This is a very important point in light of the fact that so many in this country seem quick to point the finger exclusively at Islam as being an oppressive and barbaric religion. It is apparent that these individuals are overlooking the actions of certain fundamentalist Christian factions. These people are just as committed to injecting their theological beliefs into public policy and government as radical Islamics are. This can only lead to grave injustices regardless of who the practitioners are...

In Uganda, the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, if enacted, would broaden the criminalisation of homosexuality by introducing the death penalty for people who have previous convictions, are HIV-positive, or engage in sexual acts with people of the same sex or with those under 18 years of age. The bill also includes provisions for Ugandans who engage in same-sex sexual relations outside of Uganda, asserting that they may be extradited for punishment back to Uganda, and includes penalties for individuals, companies, media organisations, or non-governmental organisations that support LGBT rights.

The proposed legislation in Uganda, however, has been noted by several news agencies to be inspired by American evangelical Christians. A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held in which three American Christians asserted that homosexuality was a direct threat to the cohesion of African families.

American evangelicals such as Scott Lively and California pastor Rick Warren have a history of involvement in Uganda where they focus their missionary work. As a result, Warren and others have become influential in the shaping of public policy in Uganda, Nigeria and, to a lesser extent, Kenya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

TheNavyChief - - - Re: #1.4 ... Religion is the problem??? ... could be true in many cases

But tell me ... what RELIGION was Stalin?

Should Atheists join the barbaric guilty?

But tell me ... what RELIGION was Stalin?

While I can see your point on the religion angle, there is an issue of timing.

Stalin died decades ago. The Saudi Arabian and the US governments, as well as many others around the world, are still executing people today.

I see little room for anyone who supports the death penalty in the US to call what Saudi Arabia is doing "barbaric." Not only do we continue to do business with them, enabling that government to continue to benefit from the money we send there, but our justice system ( which is supposed to not have a religious element, so should have no more religious an influence on it than Stalin's did ) has executed people later proven innocent who were only convicted because corrupt individuals acting in the name of "justice" hid evidence or flat-out lied.

Just and equitable is a matter of opinion. I think punishment should never be equitable. It should be severe enough that others don't want that punishment to happen to them. The Saudis have this covered I believe.

A man working for the organisation claimed al-Fakki had offered to cast a spell for £1,000. It is feared the prisoner was beaten and then coerced into making a statement.

The above case referenced within the article I find far more frightening. A man can be sentenced to death based on a hearsay account that he's casting spells. That is where I have some righteous indignation at the religion perpetrating this nonsense. NPR was discussing Pakistan's blasphemy laws this morning, and they're just as bad. It's the Salem witch trials playing out in the 21st century.

Yosho--

Stalin died decades ago. The Saudi Arabian and the US governments, as well as many others around the world, are still executing people today.

And we are not executing on any basis of a religious reason. We do not even have a national religion. Yes Saudi Arabia is an Islamic nation, but North Korea a communist country, sans religion, is also conducting executions. China, communist country, executes too.

So execution is not based on religion, it is based on country laws, it just happens some countries have a national religion.

And we are not executing on any basis of a religious reason.

Yet. If these "guilty until proven innocent" laws regarding miscarriages here in the States are any indicator, the religious conservatives' contribution to such laws could very well lead to executions on a de facto religious basis even if the laws don't quote the Bible.

I have to admit I haven't read this entire seed. But I'd like to see some proof that the GOP is calling for the execution of mothers who have "natural miscarriages" or experience a "still birth". Sounds kind of "out there" to me.

Verification ANYBODY ... please.

Yet. If these "guilty until proven innocent" laws regarding miscarriages here in the States are any indicator,

No such thing as a "guilty until proven innocent" law....sounds like tripe to me.

Simplistic Reality

It's what the Koran preaches... for all good muslims to follow the Koran and Sharia.. and Saudi Arabia is the model country for what the Koran preaches and how Islamic society should be. It's also home to Mecca, etc, etc. Why is anyone surprised by this? This is simply there religion and there values. The "religion of peace" is anything but, that's the irony of it.

Here are 3 Things About Islam you probably didn't know explained. Short concise video.

Being barbaric and backwards is a given.

Whoa... hold it right there. Study the history of Saudi Arabia and the Saud family before you say that.

Saudi Arabia is NOT the model for an Islamic country. They violate shariah in Soooo many ways. For example... what is their Constitution? How is that Sunnah when Rasul Allah (pbuh) drafted a constitution for Medinah? He never used the Qur'an as his constitution, now did he?

Also look at how they became rulers of Saudi Arabia. A very bloody conquest of the peninsula, where they basically butchered any muslims who opposed them. The Saud family are not muslim. They are the hypocrites the Qur'an talks about. They are tyrants and oppressors. And Wahhabism and Salafism are looked upon negatively within Islam to the point where most Saudis lie in the presence of other muslims and say they are Hanbali or Shafi'i. The royal family employs Islamic scholars. It is haram for Islamic scholars to work for rulers and hold political positions within a government. Literally just about everything the Saud family does is Haram. And unfortunately most Saudis know it. But the Saud family has all the money (also haram, they should give it to their people as charity but they don't) and the Saud family has all the weapons and military training from, guess who? That's right, the US. We help keep these criminals in control of that country. The rise of radical Islam goes hand in hand with the fiscal rise of the Saud family from oil sales and production. We pay to perpetuate their warped views of Islam every time we fill up our car, use plastic (made from petroleum), etc.

The only reason why Mecca is under their control is because they killed a large number of muslims to put it under their control.

Also look at the history of Wahhabism/Salafism. It was started by a manned named Wahhab. He was kicked out of his own country because his interpretation of Islam was wrong and violent and didn't agree with the Ulema's understanding and intepretation of Islam. In exile he met ibn Saud. The two became friends and ibn Saud was just as vicious and sadistic as Wahhab was. So ibn Saud swore to Wahhab that his family would continue to practice and diseminate Wahhab's messed up version of Islam. As the Saud family continued to wipe out and destroy one muslim community after another on the Arabian Peninsula, they forced Wahhabism on the survivors (which is also against the Qur'an, there can be no compulsion in Islam). And the reason why they attacked and killed their fellow muslims (which is haram in Islam. Muslims are not allowed to kill or fight other muslims)? Greed and power (which is also haram in Islam).

They are literally the opposite of everything Islam stands for and teaches. That is why they had to create their own bastardized version of Islam for themselves, because by any other madhab they are all the worst type of criminals. NO OTHER MADHAB acknowledges Wahhabism or Salafism as being Islamic and Wahhabism/Salafism believes only their version of Islam is correct and all other muslims must die for not following it. And that, in and of itself, is also haram and unIslamic!

The above case referenced within the article I find far more frightening. A man can be sentenced to death based on a hearsay account that he's casting spells. That is where I have some righteous indignation at the religion perpetrating this nonsense. NPR was discussing Pakistan's blasphemy laws this morning, and they're just as bad. It's the Salem witch trials playing out in the 21st century.

Saudi Arabia is notorious for keeping the voices of dissent quiet. I doubt he was trying to practice witchcraft. From the stories I've heard from Saudis I know here in the US, Saudi Arabia is worse than Iran when it comes to "secret police" and silencing opposition. It's more likely this guy was starting to speak out against the government in hopes to grow a rebellion and free the country from its oppressive oligarchy rule. So they arrested him and made up some crazy charges. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these executions are for the same thing and the charges against people are fictitious. Which is also why they are given no legal representation in court (which is also against Islamic Law to do that).

Notice the article states there have been more executions this year so far than all of last year? Coincidence that all the revolts against governments in the middle east have been happening in the past year and Saudi Arabia started to have some but were "disbanded" by authorities before they could gain any momentum. And now they are executing a lot of people...it really is no coincidence.

No such thing as a "guilty until proven innocent" law.

Even Ron acknowledges the approach exists, he just disagrees that they could ever be taken to the extent of having a death penalty.

if she killed a child, im good with her being killed as well. how they do it is of no recourse to me. if she wanted to be buried with her head, perhaps she shouldnt have killed a child.

the only thing that would be an issue to me is what type of evidence is required to put someone to death. no need to maintain a group of killers for life.

Yosho,

Even Ron acknowledges the approach exists, he just disagrees that they could ever be taken to the extent of having a death penalty.

I don't care what the opinion of another is simply because you surmise they agree with you. There is not such thing in the United States.....

The video is right on target Wakeup.......

Ron W.-1891955

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008052/Outrage-pregnant-women-lose-babies-facing-murder-charges.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

The video is right on target Wakeup.......

REally? how So? There wasn't a single thing in the video that was true.

Point #1 says "The Qur'an is to be taken literally, is not full of symbolism or vague analogies. Mostly it is direct commands."

That is ABSOLUTELY 100% false. The ONLY branch of Islam that believes that is Salafism/Wahhabism. And it is why all the other branches of Islam do not accept Salafism/Wahhabism as a recognized sect of Islam.

The ENTIRE Qur'an is one HUGE poem. It is Poetry. How can you interpret poetry literally? I posted this in another thread, writing here for you to dispell the myths WITH ACTUALLY PROOF...

Most of the incorrect interpretations come from not looking at the Qur'an's poetic form. Since it is poetry, it can tell us the context and meaning without spelling it out. But for some, they interpret it more literally, ignoring the poetic nature of it. But the Qur'an says:

We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’ān making things clear: [Qur'an 36:69]

He it is Who has revealed to you this perfect Book, some of its verses are definite and decisive. They are the basic root (conveying the established meanings) of the Book and other (verses) are susceptible to various interpretations. As for those in whose hearts is perversity follow (verses) that are susceptible to different interpretations, seeking (to cause) dissension and seeking an interpretation (of their own choice). But no one knows its true interpretation except Allâh, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge. They say, `We believe in it, it is all (the basic and decisive verses as well as the allegorical ones) from our Lord.' And none takes heed except those endowed with pure and clear understanding. [Qur'an 3:7]

So this admits that the Qur'an is poetry, it is from God (Muhammad (pbuh) was never taught poetry and could not write poetry on his own) and should be approached as such. And men of understanding/knowledge know this and accept both the literal and allegorical parts of the Qur'an instead of just focusing on one or the other.

So what does this all mean? Let's use a parallel in english. If I quoted a poem like this,

Push it in and twist the knife again
Watch my face
As I pretend to feel no pain

What is that telling you? It sounds like someone is getting stabbed no? But now if we include the line prior to these lines it reads like this...

Drop his name
Push it in and twist the knife again
Watch my face
As I pretend to feel no pain

It is allegory. The author [John Mayer, "Heartbreak Warfare"] is using the analogy of being stabbed by a knife to explain the pain he feels when his ex mentions her new boyfriend. So are we to take the "literal" interpretation of this phrase.

"She drops something with her ex's name onto the floor, then stabs him with a knife and twists it to inflict more pain, and he pretends to ignore the knife sticking in him?"

Or are we to read it as

"she mentions her ex's name and it feels like she is stabbing him in the heart and twisting it, but he is pretending to not let her know it hurts him emotionally"?

The Wahhabi/Salafi way to interpret the Qur'an is the former, all other madhabs of Islam are the latter.

Here's another example...

I'm not the only soul who's accused of hit and run
Tire tracks all across your back
I can see you had your fun
But darlin' can't you see my signals turn from green to red
And with you I can see a traffic jam straight up ahead

Jimi Hendrix "Crosstown Traffic"

Literal translation:

I've been accused of hitting people with my automobile and fleeing the scene. The scars on your body indicate to me that you have been hit by a car many times. But you can't see that my traffic signal is about to turn from greed to red so I will not hit you with my automobile. And just by looking at you I can see you are the type of person who jams up traffic.

Or allegorical translation:

I'm not the only person who has broken a lot of hearts before, I can see from your past you've done a lot of heartbreaking too. And everything about you is telling me I should stop seeing you, but when I'm with you I can't help but let you lead me on into heartbreak just the same.

Which interpretation is correct?

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Point #1.2 The Qur'an contradicts itself and later verses supersede earlier verses.

That is entirely false. The Qur'an NEVER contradicts itself. It even says of itself that is it perfect and there are no contradictions contained within it. That is the litmus test to which one hold's their understanding of it. If you interpret a verse, and that interpretation contradicts OTHER verses, then your interpretation is false and you need to go back to the drawing board.

The Wahhabis and Salafis believe that verses that were revealed later abrogate or "undo" verse of the Qur'an that came earlier because of one verse that says:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that God Hath power over all things? [Qur'an 2:106] Yusuf Ali Interpretation

Whatever Message We abrogate or abandon it, We bring a better (Message) than that or (at least) the like of it. Do you not know that Allâh is indeed Possessor of power to do all He will. [Qur'an 2:106] Amatul Rahman Omar Interpretation

Whatever verse We may annul or cause you to forget, We will bring a better one than it, or one like it; do you not know that Allah has power over all? [Qur'an 2:106] Hamid Aziz Interpretation

 We do not erase/nullify/abolish from a sign/verse/evidence , or We make it forgotten, (except that) We come/bring with better than it, or similar/equal/alike to it. Do you not know that God (is) on every thing powerful/capable ? [Qur'an 2:106] Muhammad Ahmed & Samira interpretation

When We cancel a message (sent to an earlier prophet) or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things? [Qur'an 2:107 (106] Ahmed Ali Interpretation

So as you can see, some understand it as meaning anything new overrules anything old in the Qur'an. But others, look at it as anything from previous scriptures (the Bible and Torah) are overruled by the Qur'an. A good example of this is Alcohol. Wine and intoxicating drinks are lawful and allowable in the Bible and Christianity, but they are not allowed for Muslims in the Qur'an. But to say that certain verses of the Qur'an overrule other verses of the Qur'an contradicts this

Do they not ponder over the Qur'an? Had it been the word of any other but God they would surely have found a good deal of variation in it. [Qur'an 4:82]

(We have revealed the) Qur'ân in Arabic, there is no deviation from rectitude (in it and is free from all flaws), that they may guard against sufferings. [Qur'an 39:28]

So we can see that the Qur'an doesn't contradict itself and is free from flaws. So how can it abrogate itself? This is why it doesn't. Our undertanding or interpretation of it can contradict itself. And that is a litmus test to check if the interpretation is correct. If any interpretation of any verse in the Qur'an contradicts another verse in the Qur'an, then the interpretation is incorrect.

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Point #2 Trying to institute Shariah law worldwide...

Where is this book of shariah that Muslims are trying to institute? Answer... there is NONE! Shariah is a process, not a thing. Even now each country that uses shariah has different laws. How can the laws differ if they both follow shariah? BECAUSE shariah is not a solid rigid book of laws. It's a process of examination, out of which you get Fiqh. Fiqh IS law. But these Islamaphobes will never use the word Fiqh because it's too easy to see how it varies from area to area. Shariah is a process of investigating, the results of that investigation is Fiqh.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/02/26/sharia_the_real_story

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Point #3 Taqiyya is the same concept as "Admission under duress". We have the same laws in the US. Anything someone says while being physically tortured is most likely going to be a lie and is inadmissable as evidence in court. That is what Taqiyya is. YOU'VE been lied to if you think it means something else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

US law prohibits using evidence obtained illegally or under duress in US courts.

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So.... if you would rather believe the video... good luck to you and may God bless you with understanding one day. If you don't want to believe the video, get out and meet some muslims and go to some mosques and ask questions.

Also, just to show that the Qur'an is in fact poetry and rhymes, I'll post some transliteration of the Qur'an, highlighting the rhyme. I would post the arabic writing, but most people probably aren't going to be able to read it. so this transliteration is what the arabic pronunciations "sound" like using english letters, so you can get an idea of how it rhymes and really is poetry in arabic.

Surah 1, Al Fatihah

http://www.audioislam.com/audio/quran/recitation/al-afaasee/surah_al_fatihah.mp3

A'uthu bil-la him-in-a shay-tan neera-jEEM

Bismillah hear-rahman neara-hEEM

Al-hum-du li-lah-he ra-beel ala-mEEN
Ah rah-man neara-hEEM
Mal-iki yeow-ma-dEEN

E-ya kana-boo-doo wa E-ya ka-nusta-EEN
Eh-din-a sira-tal musta-kEEN
Sira-tal Eh-din-a an-umta a-lay-him, Gway-reel mack-du-bi a-lay-him, wa la-Dwah-LEEN

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Surah 114, An-Nas

http://www.audioislam.com/audio/quran/recitation/salaah-bin-abdurrahmaan-bukhaatir/114.mp3

Qul a'uthu birabbin-NAS
Malikin-NAS
Ilahin-NAS

Min shar-reel, was-wa-seel, khan-NAS
Al-ladhi yu-was-wee-su fee-su-doorin-NAS
Minal jin-nati wan-NAS

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Surah 112, Al-Iklas

http://www.audioislam.com/audio/quran/recitation/salaah-bin-abdurrahmaan-bukhaatir/112.mp3

Qul-hu Alla-hu a-HAD
Alla-hu sa-MAD
Lum ya-lid, wa lum you-lad,

wa lum ya-koon-la-hu Ku-fu-wan a-HAD

I just picked a few short ones to illustrate easily. But even the long Surahs (chapters) have a rhyme and meter to them. And when listening to the audio, you can also hear a distinct melody and chord pattern with cadences within the melody that the reciters sing. Each reciter will usually sing it differently than another, but they all try to incorporate cadences at the same points, to help articulate the true meaning.

So... after listening and reading, I have NO IDEA how someone could even possibly say it is not poetry. And as we all know, poetry always contains allegory, symbolism and metaphors.

If you've read the koran you wouldn't be. ;)

Your excuse for illiteracy is that you read the Koran? Huh?

Wakeup,

Maybe you can then tell why the later, more violent passages were written after Muhammad was rejected by the Meccans when he left Medina to convert them.....

Islam needs a Reformation Pard.....and there are millions of great Muslims that are up to the task.

please post an example of one of these "more violent" later passages and we can discuss it.

Also... what you just stated doesn't quite make sense to me, not sure if it's a typo or not...

more violent passages were written after Muhammad was rejected by the Meccans when he left Medina to convert them.....

When was the "violent" passages revealed? After he was rejected by the Meccans and moved to Medinah? Or after he moved back to Mecca after living in Medina?

Right now the way your statement reads you are saying he was "rejected by the Meccans when he LEFT MEDINA to convert them [who, the Meccans?]"

If you've never read a historical account of Muhammad's (pbuh) life, I found a pretty decent website that chronicles the history of the Prophet (pbuh) if you are interested in reading it. It's very similar to the books I've read, but not quite as in depth, but it's still good... It starts from before he was born and continues after his death. Although after his death it starts to talk about the Shi'a viewpoint as I think this was written by a Shi'a scholar. And just for the record, I'm not Shi'a. But I couldn't find a good "life of the prophet" biography online to post here from a Sunni scholar. But anyway, it's good to read both sides of the story anyway... so enjoy!

http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/title.htm

If you are interested in some good books about the life of the Prophet (pbuh) here's a couple I would recommend... These will be better than any website you can find online...

http://www.amazon.com/Ar-Raheeq-Al-Makhtum-Sealed-Nectar-Biography/dp/1591440718/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309310458&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Karen-Armstrong/dp/1842126083/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309310399&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Prophet-Time-Karen-Armstrong/dp/0061155772/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Your obviously of the Islamic faith.. and you have answered very clearly and with examples to each question / claim presented. I commend you on that. I'm going to really read over everything carefully. I'd love to possibly ask you more questions sometime. May I ask.. how you know so much? Are you a imam? Or just simply very knowledgeable about Islam in general. I ask this because I haven't seen any non Muslim use (pbuh) before and thus I'm assuming.

http://www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=100,0,0,1,0,0

Your obviously of the Islamic faith.. and you have answered very clearly and with examples to each question / claim presented. I commend you on that. I'm going to really read over everything carefully. I'd love to possibly ask you more questions sometime. May I ask.. how you know so much? Are you a imam? Or just simply very knowledgeable about Islam in general. I ask this because I haven't seen any non Muslim use (pbuh) before and thus I'm assuming.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I am muslim. I reverted 4 years ago Masha'Allah (was raised Catholic) and have been studying ever since. I spend a lot of time studying, Insha'Allah to try and catch up. Compared to every other muslim I know (including children), I am about as knowledgeable as maybe a 6~8 year old muslim child. It is required by Islam that every muslim seek knowledge for him/herself and not to "take someone else's word for it" type of thing. So I try to study and go to classes and lectures in my area as much as I can.

Every muslim is an Imam, since Imam simply means "prayer leader". When at my house, I am the Imam. When at a relative's house, he is the Imam or sometimes we let one of the children lead the prayer, and in those instance the child is the Imam. And that is actually how we discuss/refer to it, "do you want to be Imam for this prayer?" and so on... I was actually just talking about that in another thread...

Here is a link to that post if you are interested. I start talking briefly about what an Imam actually is towards the end of the post. Most Christians think of an Imam as a priest or minister of some sorts. But that isn't really correct, since there is no such type of position as a priest or minister in Islam (at least not in Sunni Islam). #58.13 - Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:46 PM PDT

http://www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=100,0,0,1,0,0

Was this in reply to something I said? It seems to be a pretty good website. Not sure if you realized it, but I have Qur'an 2:62 as the "Quote" for my newsvine profile! Alhamdulilah [Praise God]!

In starting to read the link, it does a better job of explaining what I was trying to say...

Before attempting an explanation of any verse of the Qur’an there are certain rules one must adhere to:

Firstly, the Qur’an must not be viewed as a compilation of individual injunctions and exhortations but as one integral whole: that is, as an exposition of an ethical doctrine in which every verse and sentence has an intimate bearing on other verses and sentences, all of them clarifying and amplifying one another. Consequently, its real meaning can be grasped only if we correlate every one of the statements with what has been stated elsewhere in its pages, and try to explain its ideas by means of frequent cross references, always subordinating the particular to the general and the incidental to the intrinsic. Whenever this rule is faithfully followed, we realise that the Qu’ran is – in the words of Muhammad Abduh – “its own best commentry”¹. Keeping this in mind one can then attempt the explanation of the two verses, to see if there is any apparent contradiction between them.

Thank you for posting that link. I'm going to bookmark it and explore the website more!

Yes...he wrote the later verses when he left Medina to convert the Meccans...

I'll break out the Koran given to me when I was in Pakistan and present some of the more violent Suras later in the Book for you. Thanks from me as well for the information you have presented. Understanding comes with information and you are doing well for your ideals. That stated, I also believe your religion needs a Reformation led by moderate Muslims....only from inside the faith can the Wahabists be confronted successfully.

Religious nations are backward nations.

Yes...he wrote the later verses when he left Medina to convert the Meccans...

Actually, he left Medina because the Quraishi tribe (the ones who controlled Mecca) broke a peace treaty with Medina and killed several muslims on their way to hajj. There WAS a peace treaty that the Quraishis signed with Muhammad (pbuh) that stated that no muslims were allowed in Mecca EXCEPT for a three day period once a year where Muslims were allowed to enter mecca and perform Hajj at the Ka'aba. This lasted two years until the Quraishi tribe decide they had had enough and attacked and killed a group of muslims going to Hajj during the 3 day period specified in the treaty.

So he never left Medina to "convert" anyone. He left, as our soldiers and military leaders left our country for Afganistan two months after 9/11, in response to an act of war. And he didn't stop until the Quraishi's army had been defeated and he rode to the Ka'aba. That is an interesting story. If you can find it, check it out.

In Islam nobody can be "converted". People convert of their own free will. Muhammad's (pbuh) job/purpose (and all of our jobs) was/is simply to convey the message. That is all. If people do not accept Islam then that is Allah's (swt) will for them. If the do accept Islam then that is Allah's (swt) will for them. But in no way is anyone allowed to go out and "convert" anyone else. I'll refrain from posting more quotes from the Qur'an in order to keep this reply from getting any longer than it already is... but if you look up Qur'an 2:256, 10:99, 24:54 (and I'm sure there are other surahs as well in addition to these) you will see what I am talking about.

some of the more violent Suras later in the Book for you.

Also just one other thing to point out, if nobody has mentioned it before. The Qur'an is not ordered in chronological order in any way. The verses were revealed out of order. And the Surah's themselves were not originally supposed to be listed in any particular order. There is a hadith from A'isha where she (several years after the prophet's death) questions Umar (I think it was Umar) as to why they want to know the particular order of her Qur'an. She said something to the effect of, the order you recite the surahs is not important (implying that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't specify or correct people to recite the chapters in a specific order).

Within each surah, the order of the verses is as the Prophet recited. But he order of the surahs themselves are somewhat organized from longest to shortest, with Al Fatihah being the exception (the first Surah).

Anyway... here is a couple of website that list the chronological order of the revelations. Some of the Surahs were actually revealed in pieces. Also the chronology has some slight discrepancies between scholars.

This lists the surahs in written order and has a columns to show their chronological order.

http://www.unc.edu/~cernst/chronology.htm

This list is organized by chronology and has the Surah number on the right most column. While this does a good job of showing the basic chronology, it doesn't show Surahs that were revealed in pieces.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an

I also believe your religion needs a Reformation led by moderate Muslims....only from inside the faith can the Wahabists be confronted successfully.

I agree to some extent, but I wouldn't say moderate Muslims need to "reform" the extremists. I would say the non-muslims just need to stop paying so much attention to the extremists. And the world as a whole needs to stop funding these wahhabi/salafi extremists. It's hard to imagine, but all of the money used around the world to carry out terrorist attacks was mainly paid for by money from the sale of crude oil. All of the propaganda the Wahhabi/Salafi sect puts out there is paid for by the sale of crude oil. Just try to imagine the amount of chaos a group like the Westboro Baptists or the KKK could cause if they made approx $275 BILLION every YEAR!!! The cost of waging a Guerilla style war is pocket change in comparison. The estimated cost of running Al Qaeda world-wide is around $30mil. $30mil in relation to $275 Billion a year, is the same as $9 in relation to $50,000 a year. Think about that... The ratio of cost to wealth for these Arab salafi jihadists is 0.018%. Take whatever you make in a year, multiply it by 0.00018. Whatever that number is, that is the relative amount it costs the Jihadists. So if you make $100,000/yr, imagine how much of a financial burden it would be on you to fund an activity which costs $18/year. Not much of a burden, huh? Heck it's more expensive to "foster" a child in a third world country through one of those charity organizations! LOL

I 100% agree with you that the only way to confront this Salafi/Wahhabi jihadism is from within the other madhabs. This is why it is counter productive for non-muslims to try and spout off all the extremist BS they hear and say it represents the whole of Islam. Because then they are alienating themselves from the majority of muslims who also believe it is BS. Which is ultimately what the Jihadists want. The more people they can get fighting each other, the easier it is for a smaller group to step in and take control. So if muslims, non-muslims, americans, south east asians, arabs, africans, europeans all banded together to stop this extremism, there is nothing the salafi jihadists could do to prevent themselves from being wiped out. So what they do is they try to pit us all against each other... so now, muslims aren't going to help non-muslims in fighting the Salafi extremists because the non-muslims are trying to group the Salafis in with all other branches of Islam. And then the non-muslims don't want to help other muslims because Salafis attached Israel and claimed they were doing it on behalf of all muslims (even though they weren't.) and so on and so forth.

Hello Love! This is why I hate organized religion of any kind! More barbaric acts are committed in the name of whatever God you believe in then just about anything else

Oh, really? Until not too long ago we too executed people for crimes committed when they were juveniles. That was our totally secular courts. It took a Supreme Court decision to stop it. Perhaps we didn't behead them, but is it really better to gas them or electrocute them?

Yosho--

And we are not executing on any basis of a religious reason.

Yet. If these "guilty until proven innocent" laws regarding miscarriages here in the States are any indicator, the religious conservatives' contribution to such laws could very well lead to executions on a de facto religious basis even if the laws don't quote the Bible.

Oh give me a freaking break. Probably be in your best interest to actually not argue this topic.

Hello Jo, once again you produced an eye opening article.

Instead of derailing this travesty of justice and barbaric acts with curtails to urls explaining groups such as above mentioned amnesty International and their knowledge of these Travis, it would be best as you and many have been doing is to bring these horiffic crimes against humanity to everyone attention.

It is no longer a coincidence that though groups like amnesty international have brought incidents like this to everyone's attention, that most media will still 5th page or not even mention such gross injustices.

groups such as amnesty International are and can be great tools for global justice, but it seems the media cherry picks which country is the flavor of the day and attaches verification of a countries misdeeds with authenticity with groups like Amnesty International. On the other hand if a country is favorable by the global community (usually due to media manipulation) articles like this young woman being executed, goes unnoticed and unannounced.

I for one would like to see more articles like this publicized and biased media based on global resource demands eliminated.

Justice, democracy, and human rights has been turned into catch phrases to draw public support, just as the select word of terrorism. These words have become just another cliche term for grabbing resources when profitable, and true cases of terrorism, disregard for human life, rights, along with the all famous democracy and justice, will go unnoticed, hidden and subdued if the said country is benefactors and appeases the so called global community.

Perhaps if we write and send e-mails to our politicians we can prevent this senseless and total disregard of human life. Blogs such as Newsvine can be a great aid in showing our discontent and disgust with an global e-mail effort to our local politicians

Jo once again great article and hoping that we can really create a difference with it, and prevent a death of an woman who only crime was defending herself.